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Talyc'jatne
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re: Riding with The Red Horseman

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A few months ago I was having many dreams about war, annihilation, destruction, and many combat related things. Most of the time we think of these things as bad, but in each dream, I felt like I was fighting and purging evil.

A spiritual counselor of mine mentioned that it may be possible that I will be riding with the Red Horseman in the end times. At first thought, I didn't think this was possible. This vessel of mine is not war approved (possible stronghold). I am a Type 1 diabetic and have recently started going through some medical problems that just doesn't seem war friendly.

But that has got me thinking...

In Revelation where the horsemen are mentioned, does it say that the children of God will be in their human vessels, or will we be transfigured to our spiritual bodies?
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Okay, after a half-thorough scan through Revelation, I didn't find any reference to the "Red Horsemen" you're speaking of. And from what I remember, the final "battle" won't be much of a battle.

"When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war, the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Revelation 20:7-10).

So from the account of Revelation, it seems there won't be any fight really, that we will be a part of (If there's another example in Scripture about us fighting in the end, please feel free to reference them). So, I'm pretty sure these "Red Horseman" aren't mentioned in Revelation. As far as the last part of your question, I don't really know, for I don't think it says we'll be a part of it at all.


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re: Riding with The Red Horseman

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The Horse come from Rev 6.

Whether you are a pre-trib, post-trib, or Mid-trib person, You will not be riding with the 4 horse men.

First we see they come from heaven, so they are righteous holy beings.

second
we see that they are the first 4 seals that are broken when christ takes teh scroll and reads from it. These four horsemen are the first 4 judgments of Christ upon the earth.

This is where a lot of Christians get Christ mixed up. A lot people think the white horse men is Christ but as you can see Christ does not return to earth till after these events. They also get mixed up because the forget that Christ is perfectly just while loving kind and merciful. The world will pay for it did to Christ and the rejection of God's laws. Sin will be punished. These 4 horsemen are the first 4 punishments.

The bible says that the white horse men will conquer the world. They will have ot submit to him. The red horse men will bring about such a destructive war it will make all wars ever waged seem like petty arguments. The black horsemen will bring about famine like never before. And the Pale Horsemen is death. The bible says that Hades will follow after the pale rider and the pale rider is the only rider with a name, or is at least named. His name is death. And the bible does not say beyond that, what the pale rider will bring. It just generally understood as bad.

These horsemen in a lot of academic circles are viewed as the physical embodiment of Christ's wrath against those who reject his saving grace.

My personal opinon...

1. As Believers we have nothing to fear from these riders. They are not coming against us.

2. I do not believe we, as Believers, will be present on this planet when this happens. I am a per-tribulation, as in we will be raptures up and caught up together with Christ before this happens.

3. I believe that These are the first 4 judgments of Christ and we will not be riding with them. I believe we will be with Christ.

And Redeemed there is a ton of fighting in Rev. IT says that Micheal and the whole legions of heaven come up against the red dragon and his armies, and it is at this point that the devil is finally removed from Heaven and the presence of God.


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re: Riding with The Red Horseman

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Revelation 7:9-17 talks about the multitude of Gentiles in white robes.

Specifically, 7:14 states, "These are the they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

In my opinion, it sounds like everyone will endure the Great Tribulation on Earth. I will have to find it again, but I also read that the Earth's population will decrease 25% after each horseman.

As far as I have read, there is no rapture of God's children prior to the opening of the first Seal. If I have misread, please enlighten me and post verse(s).

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%207&version=NIV

Also, Zechariah mentions four chariots that are similar to the four horseman in Revelation. Zechariah 6:1-8.
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Let me ask yout his for the horse men...

IF Christ came and paid for all sin, once, and for all time; If christ gives us salvation and freedom from sin and punishments of sin; Why would allow those who are saved and purchased by his blood, to suffer the wrath against the ungodly? (See in 1 thess 5:9)

As for the evidence of the rapture:

1 Cor 15:51-58

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

I Thessalonians 4:13-18

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I Thessalonians 5:1-9

1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

And Rev 19-22 deals with our position in heaven.

Also noted in Rev, the Bride of Christ comes with him when he returns in rev 19... That means at least at some point we are caught up with him. At the very least that means there is a rapture before the second coming of Christ. NOTE the Second Coming is not the rapture. The second coming is Rev 19. The church comes back with him.... So that means we have to leave here first. We are not omni present.


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RedeemedJedi7
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re: Riding with The Red Horseman

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dchsknight wrote:
Let me ask yout his for the horse men...

IF Christ came and paid for all sin, once, and for all time; If christ gives us salvation and freedom from sin and punishments of sin; Why would allow those who are saved and purchased by his blood, to suffer the wrath against the ungodly? (See in 1 thess 5:9)

As for the evidence of the rapture:

1 Cor 15:51-58

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

I Thessalonians 4:13-18

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I Thessalonians 5:1-9

1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

And Rev 19-22 deals with our position in heaven.

Also noted in Rev, the Bride of Christ comes with him when he returns in rev 19... That means at least at some point we are caught up with him. At the very least that means there is a rapture before the second coming of Christ. NOTE the Second Coming is not the rapture. The second coming is Rev 19. The church comes back with him.... So that means we have to leave here first. We are not omni present.


Okay, Dschknight, here we go.

None of those passages clearly indicates anything about us being taken away before any tribulation talked of in those scriptures. The "meeting Christ in the air" has no time frame attached to it, nor does it say it will happen before any judgment either. 1 Corinthinas 15:51 merely describes what will happen at the very end, when we those dead will raise and those still around will "be changed." at the last trump, which actually tends to suggest that it's the very end, after everything else happens.

With 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, who's to say that when we meet with Him in the clouds it's not referring to when Jesus comes in Revelation 19:11. It's not specific about the timeframe. And with the next passage in Thessalonians when it talks about us "not appointed to wrath" simply means we won't be condemned with those who are unbelievers at the final judgment when Jesus comes "like a thief in the night." There is no clear indication that this passage refers to any kind of "rapture."

Finally, Revelation 19 does not necessarily point to a "rapture." I'm not saying there's no chance. I'm only saying that there is no distinctive evidence in the passages mentioned of a "rapture" before the tribulation and judgment that will come.

One thing we must remember about Revelation. It's about the past and present, just as much as it is about the future. A lot of the language in Revelation was symbolic and would was completely understood by the original audience who read the letter, from the different the different numbers 3, 12, 7, 10, etc.

My main point is this. It could happen many different ways. Scripture is not 100% clear on how all of this will happen. There's symbolism and things are debatable since we're using a translation of a book written in a different language. There could be a rapture. There could not be. We should be prepared for either, because, the 2nd coming will "come like a thief in the night" so what we should be focused on instead is the Great Commission, because this tribulation and judgment aren't things we as believers who have been saved by the blood of Jesus need to be worried about. It's those who HAVEN'T been saved who we should be actively pursuing and sharing the Love of Christ so they can be among us when Judgment comes.


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re: Riding with The Red Horseman

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Those passages were not used to say there was time frame with the rapture, but that there is one. There has to be a rapture at some point because When Christ comes back, we are with him. We are not here. So at some point we must have left.

I am not arguing for a pre trib, mid trib or post tribe, I am arguing that there has to be a rapture. Where it happens is up for discussion but not what I am discussing here. And i believe that the passage in 1 thess is what is saying that we will not be here for the tribulation but Paul is writing it in the context of the end times. But it is nothing to argue about. One way or another glorification will happen that can be guaranteed and that is a great thing in deed.


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I guess I'm trying to understand what you mean you use the term "rapture." In my understanding, "rapture" is used to describe a "pre-trib" event where we're "taken from the world" before some seven-year Great Tribulation, which I definitely don't think it clearly proven in the Scripture we've been provided. The fact that we'll be joined with Christ in the end is a given. If that's what you mean by it, then yes. I can see that.


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The terms Pre, mid, or post trib all refer to when you, as a beleiver, believe the rapture will happen.

Forum Image

That above is the pre tribe time line.

The arrow pointing to the Rapture in that diagram is not what I am arguing. I could careless where you fall on the pre-trib, mid-trib, or Post-trib. There is scripture to back each one up. There is also Holes in Revelation, because John was told not to write everything down. Revelation is also not in chronological order. There is also a lot things that happen in Revelation that John could not understand, Hence why he says "I saw *something* like a *Something else*". Whether the rapture happens before the tribulation, right in the middle of it, or right after it, is meh who cares, but it must happen before the 1000 year reign. That is all I am arguing for.

I have seen to many people fight and bicker over this issue and churchs rifted because of it. We can not make a solid doctrinal stance on something that is not super clear. I believe pre trib, but I am not gonna force that on anyone or fight anyone over it. We are all gonna end up in heaven one way or another, if we believe in Jesus Christ as our savior we get to stay! If not well that sucks... Hence why sharing the gospel is so Important, and Why i love being in this guild!


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dchsknight wrote:
The terms Pre, mid, or post trib all refer to when you, as a beleiver, believe the rapture will happen.

Forum Image

That above is the pre tribe time line.

The arrow pointing to the Rapture in that diagram is not what I am arguing. I could careless where you fall on the pre-trib, mid-trib, or Post-trib. There is scripture to back each one up. There is also Holes in Revelation, because John was told not to write everything down. Revelation is also not in chronological order. There is also a lot things that happen in Revelation that John could not understand, Hence why he says "I saw *something* like a *Something else*". Whether the rapture happens before the tribulation, right in the middle of it, or right after it, is meh who cares, but it must happen before the 1000 year reign. That is all I am arguing for.

I have seen to many people fight and bicker over this issue and churchs rifted because of it. We can not make a solid doctrinal stance on something that is not super clear. I believe pre trib, but I am not gonna force that on anyone or fight anyone over it. We are all gonna end up in heaven one way or another, if we believe in Jesus Christ as our savior we get to stay! If not well that sucks... Hence why sharing the gospel is so Important, and Why i love being in this guild!


And Knight, that was EXACTLY my point. I believe the 1,000 years to be more symbolic and figurative rather than literal, but again, IT DOESN'T MATTER! What matters? Spreading the Gospel so that we don't have to say, "that sucks" for those who won't be saved at the final judgment.


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And I agree with that. However that does not mean we should not be talking about it. discussing it. Understanding it.

That does mean we should not fight about it however. But not talking about it and being knowledgeable about it, is actually disobedience to what God told us to do.

First and for most Proverbs says that the beginning of knowledge and wisdom is the Lord. The only way to grow in knowledge and wisdom of the bible is study it. We are commanded in 1 peter 3:15-16 "15But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 16Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ."

To not discuss it, to not understand it, to not know it. Is simply out right disobedience to the command of 1 Peter 3:15.

And while what you believe in the rapture does not matter to an unbeliever. It should matter to you, GREATLY. This is our hope. Salvation is fine. Being forgiven is fantastic, but the promise of the resurrection is paramount to anything else.

What happens when we die, as a believer should be the most for front thing that we discuss with each other. NOTHING ELSE matters other then this. Because this is what creation and our mortal bodies hope for. This is what we groan for in the secret parts of our heart. This is the bride groom seeing his bride for the first time.

Since this is our destination and should be the most joyful thing we talk about should then spill out into our gospel, into our interactions with non-believers, and into every aspect of our lives. That is why Paul writes to Thesslonica and says "13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
We are to not be ignorant of it. No matter the stance, figurative or not.

For example. John writes figuratively and not figuratively. I Believe that when john does not compare something in heaven to something here on earth, he is not being figurative, but literal. As such I believe that there will be a physical 1000 year reign in which Christ will come down to our earth and God will be our king. we live in harmony with nature and for 1000 years peace will reign on this earth after which the devil will be finally judged and condemned to the lake of fire. I believe that there will be an actual lake.

Another example as to why I believe that it is pre-trib is the term "Jacob's trouble" In the book of Jeremiah (Jer 30:7) it talks about a time set aside of persecution right before the return of Christ that is meant only for Jews and not Christians. And Daniel corroborates this with the prophesy of the 70th week.

Other issues arise with mid trib and post trib. What do you with the fact that Christ said the Holy spirit will never leave the church. But in the tribulation the holy spirit is gone. 2 Thess 2 states that the evil one is hindered in the church by the holy spirit. The Holy spirit restrains the Son of Lawlessness and that the tribulation will set on by the Son of lawlessness. BUT the Holy Spirit will un-restrain him. That means the holy spirit will remove its prescience from this world. SINCE the holy spirit is promised to never leave the church, the either that means that Jesus lied when he said the Holy Spirit was an ever present helper, or we go with the Holy Spirit.

That is how I feel about it. No judgements on other believers if they believe it or not. It does not change our salvation, but it is the hope that we have and we should ready to answer for it. Now I don't want to convince you to take that position or fight over whether you or I think it is right, but we should not be ignorant of what the bible says. And we should not hinder those to talk about or be afraid to talk about it.


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I'll do more Bible study and let ya know what I come up with, but there are some things that we have to take into consideration.

Ecclesiastes 9 sheds a lot of light on death. In verse 5, the teacher writes,
Quote:
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten."


In verse 4, the Teacher compares a dog to a lion and says that
Quote:
"...even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!"


Furthermore, in Revelation 20:11-15, we see that the dead are judged.
Quote:
"The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books....and each person was judged according to what he had done."


There was once a point in my life where I wanted to die. Just the other day I mentioned on TS that I can't wait to die, because I will be in heaven with God. But after spending some time in the bible, some other books, and getting back in touch with Elohim, I think a lot of the "Christians" today are forgetting the OT.

I have heard it said that the OT is the old contract, and the NT is the one we live under today. But we also read in the Bible that God does not change (Malachi 3:6). Let us not forget Jesus' own words:

Matthew 5:17-18 wrote:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
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You are right God does not change...

But you are wrong to assume that we are under the OT covenants. Dead wrong. Unless you area born, raised, and circumcised Hebrew the Old testament law means absolutely nothing to you. Except 1 thing, to show you are a sinner. Paul writes in Romans that with out the law we would not know sin. Even if moral law is inherent in our begin with out the Law we would have a reason to say to God "I did not know."

You are also right in that Christ did not abolish the law, but Christ fulfilled it. He fulfills it for us. Because there is nothing we can do at all, in any way, shape, or form to get salvation(justification). There is absolutely nothing you can do to pay the dept of sin that you owe(Romans 6:23).

Yes you are right, God does not change, but we are not under the Law. And there is a difference between Ceremony law and Moral Law. For example, sin offerings and the reasons for them is Ceremony law and we as Gentile sinners are not required to hold them up, because we are not Jews. Also the apostles with James, John, Saul(paul) and Barnabus all had a meeting about this. They said there is only 4 things that we should follow as gentiles and that was "20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood."(acts 15:20) every thing else in the ceremony law could not be held against the gentiles. that is why in this same chapter Peter accuses the judizers of being hypocrites because they themselves could not even uphold the law, so why should the gentiles be expected to.

And this whole new vs old covenant argument is kind of worthless because while God can not change, he made separate covenants with 3 different people, in three different times, so why can God not make a different covenant with the Gentiles.

Abraham Covenant:(marked by circumcision)
found in Gensis 12-17

Mosaic Covenant:(marked by the law)
found in 19-24

Davidic covenant:(direct promise of God to King David.)
Found in 2 samuel

Then there is a furthering of the Mosaic covenant in Jeremiah 31:30-33.
As well as the new covenant to Gentiles marked out in Hebrews 8:6-13, the whole book of Romans. and the Gospel of Luke.

Also your versus do that you quoted to do not have anything to do with the entity known as Death, AKA the Pale rider, from the book of Revelations. Also the entity known as death and the actually action of the physical body dying are two different things.


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Good discussion going on. I am agreeing with the Goat so far. Revelations is quite mysterious.


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That is mister Smiling Goat to you... wink


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